Livecode Indy price rises coming in 2016

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Newbie4
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Re: Livecode Indy price rises coming in 2016

Post by Newbie4 » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:53 pm

I see what Laggi Pittas is saying.
The bit about anyone listening is NOT about the development team - its about the direction that livecode is taking in zilch marketing , zilch trying to reach out to the bread and butter developers (you and me IMHO - Desktop with mobile options)

The start screen of the website is atrocious - it conveys nothing at all - oh you can write apps - I can do it in a dozen languages - show me the banana!!

Look at the Xojo site - Livecodes Web "master" should look at the testimonials and how the front page tells you what it does - and a picture of Raspberry pi to boot- do a PROPER GOOD classy example app for IOS and Android that doesn't take "only" 3 hours like sheepherder and put that on the appstore but the sourcecode only goes with a paid subscription to either an IOS or Android only version, and indy , business - put as many useful tips and tricks to give people a start. Do a good sidescroller, do a platform game, do a simple monthly savings/expenses home app using sqlite. if it's so quick then they should be able to be knocked out in a month or 2 - without any rough edges.
Xojo's Website
Presentation: I looked at Xojo's site Everything is right there on the home page. They clearly tell you up front what you can do with their language. "Create powerful, native apps for desktop, web, iOS & Raspberry Pi™. Fast development. Easy deployment."
They back it up with evidence. They have sample apps to download and try. They have links to what they offer: a free textbook, QuickStart, Tutorials, Language Ref., User Guide, articles, forums, etc. They have testimonials. They list all the companies that use Xojo (Disney, AT&T, Xerox, Intel, etc). It is impressive. Their website is clearly designed to promote the product to new users and get them to buy into it. Out of curiosity, I am even tempted to try it.
Pricing: They have many reasonable pricing levels from $99 to $1,999 with good starter licenses - Desktop/Web/iOS at $299 each depending on the platform that you want to start out on. The Pro license is $699. for all platforms. With the 90 day money back guarantee, I could see many people trying it out if they are serious about trying programming.

LiveCode's Website
Presentation: Then look at Livecode's site. The home screen tells you that you can write apps and it shows only an Apple laptop. There is nothing to indicate that it has any other capabilities or features. There is a note that it will increase in price to $999. next year. That is basically the home page
It takes a lot of clicking to find out more, e.g. manual, lessons, etc. Everything is there, somewhere on the site. It is just not quick and easy to find it. It is not a friendly site.
Pricing If you click on "pricing" you see that there are 2 licenses - $599 and $1,999 per year with a note that the $599 license will go up to $999 next year. Nowhere does it mention the free Community Version. That pricing would deter anyone who was casually interested in trying the language or getting into programming

Put yourself in a new user's position. Which would you choose?

Even if I was not aware of Xojo's site, I do not see people trying LiveCode based on their website. I would continue looking for other languages to try. It does not convince me to try it

As for the price increase, it seems that its purpose is to prevent current users from leaving the fold and to coerce future developers to sign up now. The goal is immediate licenses, not necessarily long term growth. Even as a new developer just getting started, it is a hard decision to commit to - Pay now even if you are not ready to publish or pay more later when you are ready. If they are having problems, it forces them to reconsider their decision to use LiveCode vs something else.

Raising the entry price that high is also not a way to attract new users. A starter fee of $999 is a formidable barrier to many people. And there are so many new customers that they can go after. Some people just are curious and want to learn what programming is about and try it. Others may just want to write a simple application for their own use. They have a need and would like to fill it themselves. Finally, there are those users that have an idea for an app and may have interest in making money with it. (I know that most of them would be happy with just the Community Version, but they do not know that - from the website.)

With all the schools jumping on the Computer Science/programming bandwagon, there is going to be a massive audience out there to draw from (all students/new customers). Even adults are expressing an interest in learning to program. These are all the people that the website should address. (if that is LiveCode's goal)

I guess it all comes down to LiveCode's long term goals and strategy. Up to now, it seems they are deriving their income from current developers with upgrades, add ons and license renewals.

It would make sense to find a way to tap into the fast growing numbers of people/students that are wanting to learn programming or just to create programs/apps of their own. There must be a way to make money from them on a yearly basis. A lower entry fee?

If not, then by the shear numbers of new customers trying LiveCode, there should be an increase of serious developers who do go on to be paying customers. (In sales, they say that is is just about numbers. The more people you call on, the more sales you will get. To increase your sales, call on more people). So for LiveCode to increase its paying user base, it needs to increase its new users.

At any rate, the website could be more informative and more user friendly.
Cyril Pruszko
https://sites.google.com/a/pgcps.org/livecode/
https://sites.google.com/a/setonhs.org/app-and-game-workshop/home
https://learntolivecode.com/

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Re: Livecode Indy price rises coming in 2016

Post by FourthWorld » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:25 pm

david759 wrote:well for one finally break from the multi failed concept of hypercard and enter into the modern programming world.
The flavor of LiveCode's language seems to be a key part of your concern, so I'll share a metaphor here to illustrate how one might at least appreciate what it provides for others, even if it never becomes a favorite for you.

The following is long. You're not obliged to read it, and I don't expect it'll change your tastes. I'm not writing it for you. I'm writing it so I have a bookmark to refer to in other discussions of language flavor, as they do indeed come up from time to time, just as you'll find them in the communities for R and Python and so many other distinctive languages.

---

I've been participating in online communities since literally before the Web was invented, going back to the days of CompuServe, GENIE, and Wildcat BBSes. During these decades I've learned some things about how comnunities work, and how to participate in them gracefully and productively.

I've found it useful to enter into a community as one would accept an invitation to a dinner party.

Imagine if I was invited to attend a meal that one of my Indian friends is preparing, and I'm told that chicken will be the main course.

Being an American, of course I've had chicken many times. I'm very familiar with it. It's usually either covered in BBQ sauce or a Marsala sauce. Had it a hundred times. I know my chicken.

So imagine my surprise when I sit down to a traditional Indian meal. The chicken is covered in a yellow sauce I've never tasted before. I don't know what it is, but it's not at all like anything I've ever had anywhere in all my years.

At this point we can consider many possible choices, but let's explore just two.

I might choose to tell the hostess that her chicken is simply wrong, and demand that she take it back to the kitchen and come out with something more "standard". What good could come from that?

Alternatively, I might choose to enter the conversation very differently, starting with a question, such as "What is this sauce?"

This invites the hostess to explain what tumeric is, how much her family has enjoyed it for generations, how to balance it with ginger and coconut milk so that it compliements the jasmine rice so well.

Same concern, very different outcome.

I might not ever make tumeric chicken myself. Perhaps I just don't even like it at all. But at least two things have happened: I've come to understand that chicken comes in more forms than I'd previously imagined, and I was able to learn this without being impolite. I might even have made a friend or two while I was there.

Extra bonus points that I'm also now better prepared for next week's meal where my vegan friend will serve portobello mushrooms in Worcestershire sauce, with no meat at all. :)

---

At the heart of most contentious discussions is a question which, when asked, can resolve most things easily and, when not asked, will exacerbate the issue: "Why?"

Here we might ask: "Why is LiveCode like this?"

As Lagi explained, much of its flavor comes from a GUI integration rarely found in other languages, supported by an event handling system that's fairly easy to pick up, quite flexible, and allows the developer to craft their work with a focus on the user experience.

All of this takes place at a very high level that allows us to hone our app's business logic without getting mired in the tedious bit-counting of manual memory management, type coercion, and the like, making it uncommonly productive for a surprisingly wide range of tasks.

Every language has elements its developers are most proud of, and a few that are historical compromises accrued over time that make even its fans cringe. And LiveCode is like that too.

The most popular language right now has only a 20% market share, with most of the rest of the Top 100 between 0.5% and 2.5%, meaning that in any room of programmers nearly everyone you meet will be using something different. And LiveCode is like that too.

Yet despite the relatively slender audience every great language has, there are many thousands who enjoy it and do productive work with it. And LiveCode is like that too.

Every good programming language has conditionals, loops, arrays, string manipulation, and other common elements, while the implementation within each language varies, sometimes greatly, because of course without that variance there would have been no reason to have made yet another programming language. And LiveCode is like that too.

No single language is best for all tasks, which is why there are so many with new ones created every year, because each has a focus different from the others. And LiveCode is like that too.


If you find yourself in this forum, chances are you were looking for a flexible scripting language with integrated GUI support across a mix of platforms rarely attempted anywhere else.

This is very rare, which is why you find yourself here in a corner of the world relatively few frequent (yet).

The uncommon goal LiveCode represents does indeed come with uncommon requirements, both for new users adopting it and for the core dev team producing it.

For the dev team, supporting a range of platform coverage beyond what even some much larger companies attempt is indeed challenging. And when we consider the point-and-click ease of the process, from installing LiveCode to deploying a standalone with it, imperfections and all very few tools package things up as conveniently. You can use LiveCode from start to finish without ever entering Terminal, something you can't say for many alternatives. And then there's the feature set, from databases to multimedia and so many things in between. It's quite expensive to produce, more so than most alternative tools, which is why you're here: you haven't found this particular mix of features anywhere else.

For new users, those accustomed to other languages will have some unlearning. This is also true when acquiring habits of being conscious of white space when learning Python, or closing conditionals with "fi" in bash, or any number of other things that make every language uniqely worth making. But on the whole, as Lagi pointed out with his three-point summary, the number of things one needs to learn to get started with LiveCode is arguably smaller than with many alternatives.


LiveCode may not be for everyone, just as R and Erlang and Clojure and Perl are enjoyed by many but not all.

If you try it and it's not to your taste, no worries. There are literally hundreds of alternatives to choose from. Use whatever works for you.

But while you're here, if you're interested in learning LiveCode I believe you'll find this community can be enormously helpful in your evaluation.

Begin the conversation with a polite question and you'll be greeted with a great many very helpful answers. You might even make a friend or two while you're here.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

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Re: Livecode Indy price rises coming in 2016

Post by FourthWorld » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:42 pm

Newbie4 wrote:At any rate, the website could be more informative and more user friendly.
Good observations all around. Thanks for taking the time to write that. I've forwarded the URL to your post to the web team lead, and will include time in our next meeting to discuss those items along with the other ongoing revisions underway for the site.
Richard Gaskin
Community volunteer LiveCode Community Liaison

LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

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Re: Livecode Indy price rises coming in 2016

Post by jacque » Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:01 pm

well for one finally break from the multi failed concept of hypercard and enter into the modern programming world.
That tripped me up too. I worked with HC from its inception to its unfortunate end, worked with the HC team on a couple of projects at Apple, ran the HC forum on AOL. HC was one of the most successful languages of all time back then because it took the power of programming to the common people and out of the hands of the geek elite. It was the doorway to accessibility for everyone, and boy did everyone flock to it. The HC forum on AOL was one of the busiest on the service (I think just below the DTP forum) and new uploads were coming in at dozens per day. No one at Apple knew exactly how many people were using HC but their best estimate was in the millions. HC only ended because Steve Jobs decided that Apple should be a multimedia company and he just didn't get what HC could do. I was there, I watched it happen. He disbanded the team. I got a personal terse email from him telling me to butt out when I organized an effort to save the product.

So HC was definitely not a failed product and it met its goal far beyond expectations. What I see as the problem in this thread is the disconnect between experienced programmers with certain expectations and new users who find they can write apps that actually work without learning a language full of esoteric syntax. Given the goal of empowering regular users, LiveCode can succeed where other less accessible languages will fail. (I learned Pascal many years ago, and have tinkered with a flavor of C, and both were far more difficult for me.)

The issue this causes for those coming from other languages is that they have to unlearn some things, and that's probably as hard for them as it was for me to learn their methods. In fact, the forums here often deal with experienced programmers who need advice about getting over that hurdle. It takes a while, but more often than not, once the shoe drops they are hooked and don't look back. We have a lot of users like that. Give it a chance.
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw dot com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Livecode Indy price rises coming in 2016

Post by Lagi Pittas » Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:02 am

An Excellent summary of the website problems Newbie let's hope they take note, we were promised a new website a year ago.

And btw the homepage doesn't work on android but does on IOS and has been like that from day 1 of that video ... unprofessional is the most polite thing I can say.

Lagi

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Re: Livecode Indy price rises coming in 2016

Post by david759 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:24 am

FourthWorld wrote: The question of emotional investment might equally apply to someone who takes the time to create an account and then post repeatedly only to complain about a language they don't like and don't even use.
So then the answer is yes :D - you are very emotionally invested (smart people knew the obvious) since thats just another emotional retort - "how dare you point out on an open forum the issues you have with my beloved"

Like I said you could lock er up and have the forum be all paid - suggest it as a revenue stream to lower the cost of the license perhaps?

Tip for the day - love people use technologies. don't switch em up or you are off the path on enlightenment.
It would never occur to me to post in the Python forums about how I prefer languages that are less white-space-dependent and therefore their language must change to be more "standard".
then you need to get out more and shake the noggin into "occurring" because there are debates all over the web about Javascript and the benefits of ruby syntax etc etc and this language versus the other. Which is cleaner more elegant. Programmers tend to be avid about that kind of thing. You just don't see it as much here because you don't see much activity - period. If one day (unlikely now due to price) LC ever did start to gain traction you would just have to put on big boy long pants and try and deal with it better.
If I prefer another flavor of language I would just use it and enjoy it. I'd be too busy productively building software with it that I wouldn't have time to post in the forums of languages I have no interest in.
First - why aren't yo so productive with LC you don't have time to take issue with someone else's viewpoint? Truly busy is busy across the board of activities.

Second - Well you see, as is customary when grown men get so emotional, you will tend to exaggerate and eventually even lie on the other party. Where exactly did I say I have not interest in LIvecode or even the entire language? Rewriting it would hardly mean throw out the whole thing. the irony is that you made that up and then wrote -
YYou may want to review your earlier posts
lol...No YOU may need to reread and review with comprehension. I have and anyone with grade school reading will see where you focused on Swift. I have mentioned Ruby , Python, Javascript etc - a very wide variety of languages most of which are neither owned or operated by MS OR Apple. You chose one to try and build a case with by ignoring the others that let the air out of your argument.
I merely used Swift as one example of those, and a rather fair one at that since it's a relative newcomer
But runrev is not a new comer. You are rather desperately trying to claim against all rationality and reason that when a platform goes open source then you count the years of existence from that point. Totally irrational but alas par for the course when one gets so emotional. Stick your head in the ground all you wish. Its obvious at this point you are in dream world. most of the languages I mentioned started with one person or a small group, caught the fancy of developers and the adherence by developers led to investments. Where exactly is livecode getting any traction in the development world? so despite your argument that a great multi million dollar corporation has to get behind a langauge before it starts to gain traction and grow these pesky things call facts contradict you.
Straw man. Not only did I never say LiveCode was without faults,
i suggest you go do some reading on what a strawman is. My point was on the basis of your whining and passive aggresive tantrums at the idea that someone would critique Livecode. Its only rational if there is nothing to complain about.
I think you missed the title of the OP. the central question was around price.
It's clear you missed the body of the OP, in which he isn't complaining about the price at all, merely offering a reminder of the date for a discounted offer for LiveCode's proprietary version.
I don't want to laugh at you at this point but you are not giving me much escape. that is centered around price precisely as I stated . Read the part you quoted of me and see if you can find me saying "complaining about price" was central - not there.
I've been merely trying to encourage you to define the goal post. Several complaints and a few ad hominems later, you still haven't shared any specific actionable request.
Well as programmer my clients often tell me what they want and leave me to determine how to achieve them. begging that someone has to give you detailed
specifics beyond guidelines and all for free is jsut another form of whining and hand waving I now have come to associate you with on the issue.

and btw - don't know you but a person honest with themselves would be embarrassed to bring up the claims of ad homs as you have - you have attempted ad homs almost the entire thread - specifically that something must be wrong with someone who chooses to comment on what they found lacking with Livecode after deciding it was not for their children and themselves (but had hoped it would be and had shown the interest in learning more about it).
If instead you're using this thread to solicit a consulting contract, you can submit your proposal to support AT livecode.com along with an outline of your demonstrated successes in the software development tools market, and it will be forwarded to the appropriate team member.
Sorry. You can't afford me :D :D . I don't solicit on forums (Even very active ones) but I do like to point out the illogical nature of passive aggressive. A guy has to have a hobby after all :D
Last edited by david759 on Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Livecode Indy price rises coming in 2016

Post by david759 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:47 am

Newbie4 wrote: With all the schools jumping on the Computer Science/programming bandwagon, there is going to be a massive audience out there to draw from (all students/new customers). Even adults are expressing an interest in learning to program.
and a lot of them are finding python where they can in fact get jobs should they decide they like it. Its pretty readable without getting bogged down in some almost proprietary card metaphor and is a great stepping stone to other languages. NO doubt about it tack $999 and you can have the best website ever and its still an uphill proposition.
FourthWorld wrote: The flavor of LiveCode's language seems to be a key part of your concern, so I'll share a metaphor here to illustrate how one might at least appreciate what it provides for others, even if it never becomes a favorite for you.

The following is long. You're not obliged to read it,
I had already decided I wan't going to and so didn't after reading the quote above because the premise of the paragraph isn't anything I find interesting. We've all experienced or heard of the experience of all kinds of languages being appreciated. My first forayinto "programmng" was with a Commodore vic. I thought it was cool and loved entering the numbers written in the back of publications for it. IF you put one in front of me now I'd probably hook it up and blow some serious time hacking on it. Thats how we are as programmers.

A fe w people have mentioned me saying hypercard "failed". Thats not to say in its time it was a failure but its failed to make the jump to the modern. Manually cranking engines to start them was high tech in its day and no failure either if you are looking at it that way but can it succeed to make a comeback now in a modern world? NO it failed to make that jump. A few others have tried and failed to resurrect the idea. Sorry dreamers and lovers o the past but its not something the modern development wants to go back to the future with. Throw out the language? nah but its time to enter the modern world not trying to crank engines.

will some people say "but cranking engines is cool and we can appreciate what it provides for others"? but of course as programmers we can become enamored and proficient with just about anything tech.

Not even remotely the point I raised.
jacque wrote: The issue this causes for those coming from other languages is that they have to unlearn some things, and that's probably as hard for them as it was for me to learn their methods. In fact, the forums here often deal with experienced programmers who need advice about getting over that hurdle. It takes a while, but more often than not, once the shoe drops they are hooked and don't look back. We have a lot of users like that. Give it a chance.
Whee are all these developers not looking back? In my search i find only a couple livecode only shops. I thank you and a couple othersfor the honesty of admitting to understand what I am talking about rather than claiming I've been too general for anyone to get the point. However not going back is just not in the cards for most developers. They'd starve. LC is the odd man out. the other languages of course have their differences but theres not this great "hurdle" to overcome. I'll see how something is implemented in Ruby and then how its implemented in Python differently sure but you can line up code to accomplish a task in both of them and you see the same patten in both. All these other languages do NOT have a hurdle in the same sense. They are so similar thats its said everywhere "pick up one language and you cane easily pick up the others"

So when it comes to learning your first language or teaching your kids do you want a language that has no jobs to speak of that you will have a hurlde to unlearn when you come to the real business world?

What the world for? and it costs $999 for that privilege soon?

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Re: Livecode Indy price rises coming in 2016

Post by FourthWorld » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:04 am

@"david759":

Why are you here?
Richard Gaskin
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LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

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Re: Livecode Indy price rises coming in 2016

Post by Newbie4 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:30 am

Respectfully, I disagree with you.
Frankly if my children were taught livecode in highschool I would be ticked because I would not think it gave them a solid foundation where something like python would (and in many respects is very easy to pick up).
LiveCode actually gives them a great foundation for other languages. It is easier to learn and create useable programs with. It has constructs like any other language: If-statements, loops, lists, arrays, functions, ... and transitions to other languages like Python, Java easily. In teaching LiveCode as the first language, I show the same code in Python, Java and other languages so they see the similarities.

It also has object orientation (data/properties, methods/handlers), inheritance/message paths, etc. which transitions nicely to the teaching of Java. In fact the teaching of Java now uses terms as messages and handlers.

It also leads to the teaching of some concepts and approaches that other languages usually do not. In doing their programs, I have had students ask about threads, sockets, system functions, etc. You never get that deep with other languages in a first class.

Before you start pointing out the differences and objecting to some of my statements, take a step back. You have to agree that LiveCode is a simple and easy to understand language. (I know it has some rough edges and sticking points but in general that is true). You can quickly create some useful programs that are visually appealing. It works on all platforms and produces executables. You can also show/give your programs to your friends to show off what you have created. That is powerful. The visual component adds so much more over the purely script based languages. Of course you can do GUI based programs with Python and Java, but not with beginners. These all speak to the benefit of using LiveCode in the classroom

It is a better language to start with because the new students are not weighed down with syntax problems and strange conventions. They have more time to learn about algorithms, logic, problem solving, analyzing code, and many other soft skills that are valued in the marketplace. We actually discuss and practice those skills. They learn the theory better, go on to learn more conventional languages (Python, Java, etc) and become better programmers in the end.

I have taught many languages in my lifetime, including assembler, Fortran, COBOL, ALGOL, C, VB, Python, Java, and others. I have found LiveCode to be the easiest and most effective one for teaching programming and computer science skills and concepts. I have taught many years in both high school and at a university. So I have some knowledge about teaching and learning.

I adopted LiveCode as one of the languages in my beginner CS classes many years ago as an experiment. It has proven to be the best decisions I have ever made. The quality of student programs, the difficulty of assignments, the pass rates, the number of students going on in CS have all greatly increased as a result. The students have done better in the more advanced classes (Java, AP CS, etc) after having learned LiveCode first. I was surprised at the differences and the improvements. You can argue as much as you want but the numbers and the results are substantial.

Many students have since gone on to major in Computer Science at prestigious universities (MIT, Cal Tech, Carnegie Mellon, etc) and have done well there too. These include students who are minorities, and under-represented ethnic groups. My classes are now between 35 and 50% girls. So LiveCode and the curriculum built around it have been effective in building interest in computer science among students and have produced more accomplished students as a result.

Since LiveCode, our class sizes began to double/quadruple every year. We are not talking small numbers. I have around 200 students every year (large classes). Last year I had 400 students and had to rotate classes every quarter to handle that number. Thankfully, we hired another computer science teacher for this year and did more training. We are now looking for another one for next year. We are adding a new computer science course next year. The only change in the school has been the use of LiveCode as a starter language.

In the course of a year, the students write a number of utilities, action games, mobile apps, custom chatbots (A.I./Siri), work with BigData, modify photographs at the pixel level, cryptography, hacking/scripting at the system level and other interesting/useful programming assignments. These all would be hard to do in any other language without losing students. And when it is all said and done, they are hungry to go on to learn Java, C/C++ and other languages. Those that do not go on, are proud of what they did and feel comfortable using the computer as a tool in their other classes and careers. I did not see that happening in any great numbers with any other programming language.

LiveCode is a good language for learning to program and creating useful and fun programs. It might not be to everyone's liking. Intro programming could be taught with any language and do well. I just feel comfortable with LiveCode and what I (my students) can do with it. My goals are not necessarily to develop top knotch programmers but to show them the joy of programming, the feeling of success and pride, and an appreciation of what a computer can do for you or help you to do. I guess it is to each his/her own. As much as I enjoy programming in Java or Python, LiveCode has become my go-to language for my own use.

Thank you for the interesting discussions that you have provoked. (politics, religions and languages seem to have the tendency to cause very heated discussions) :)
Cyril Pruszko
https://sites.google.com/a/pgcps.org/livecode/
https://sites.google.com/a/setonhs.org/app-and-game-workshop/home
https://learntolivecode.com/

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Re: Livecode Indy price rises coming in 2016

Post by david759 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:15 am

FourthWorld wrote:@"david759":

Why are you here?
Apparently you need it all put in one post . SO sure I can oblige and mention all the reasons I have already stated. Repetition I guess is necessary for learning as they say

1) I cared abut the platform enough to have spent time trying to see if it would work for me (and for my children as a foundational language)
2) As stated I do appreciate the GUI
3) I still think with tweaks it could make a better run at its promise of making programming accessible to all
4) open forums allow opinions of all people. Forums are for discussions. As I have suggested several times if you don't like that you can make this a paid or private forum
Last edited by david759 on Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Livecode Indy price rises coming in 2016

Post by david759 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:24 pm

Newbie4 wrote: Before you start pointing out the differences and objecting to some of my statements, take a step back. You have to agree that LiveCode is a simple and easy to understand language. (I know it has some rough edges and sticking points but in general that is true). You can quickly create some useful programs that are visually appealing. It works on all platforms and produces executables. You can also show/give your programs to your friends to show off what you have created. That is powerful. The visual component adds so much more over the purely script based languages. Of course you can do GUI based programs with Python and Java, but not with beginners. These all speak to the benefit of using LiveCode in the classroom
Oh I agree and have agreed at the GUI point previously raised and YES despite the attempts of one person to claim otherwise there are parts of it that are extremely intuitive so I don't think the whole language needs throwing out. Maybe just added to.
I have taught many languages in my lifetime, including assembler, Fortran, COBOL, ALGOL, C, VB, Python, Java, and others. I have found LiveCode to be the easiest and most effective one for teaching programming and computer science skills and concepts. I have taught many years in both high school and at a university. So I have some knowledge about teaching and learning.
Then I am sure you know Python is plenty easy to read and chosen in many schools and universities as a first language. I concede as I always have the gui part of Livecode makes it easier for people to want to play with I just don't think it teaches modern programming as much as going with Python. theres too much to unlearn going forward (as has already been admitted to when we speak about developers having a hard time with it. They are going to have the same problem in the reverse going forward with other languages). They are going to have to unlearn "put" and learn the simple and elegant practice of declaring and using variables, they have to unlearn the card metaphor, they'll have to relearn conventions of organizing code (using brackets/parenthesis), passing parameters, creating objects, classes etc.
You can argue as much as you want but the numbers and the results are substantial
Sorry but I don't need to argue because your point is anecdotal and insufficient to support your claims objectively. I am sure they are persuasive to you in your frame of reference and limited sample size. However you are merely appealing to your own experience and authority. You haven't provided anything close to a scientifically tested thesis. Many teachers in classrooms have said similar things in regard to other languages. Plus you would have to properly control and analyze whether its learning livecode that makes a difference or the fact that you end up teaching multiple languages comparing with it (which I think is a good approach)

To put things on a screen - no doubt livecode is great even exciting for newbies and yes I can concede and see how that would spur an interest in programming going forward (but thats not synonymous with learning programming - motivation to learn is not learning by itself). GUI will tend to do that and raise the excitement level. Xojo would do the same and Visual basic did that for many people in the MS world in VS. to learn how to program not just simple things but the underlying structure of programming not too sure LC presently is a good path and think not. going off of reading like English is fine and will work for simple things but several languages didn't try to make things complex. Its just that when you get down to doing non gui behind the scenes core programming a lot of the organizational (in particular) conventions are pretty solid and make things easier to handle going forward. Ruby is another great example of an easy read but yet teaching basic computer functionality without having to unlearn anything much- its just severely limited in practical usage to rails. Plus most developers out there don't want to be one trick ponies and switching back and forth between languages is more suited for languages that follow basic conventions. I guess I'd appreciate livecodes ability to excite but I'd want my children to learn something like python in parallel. I wouldn't see the point especially now of learning a proprietary language with a cost of a thousand dollars if they had an idea the wanted to run with.

LiveCode is a good language for learning to program and creating useful and fun programs. It might not be to everyone's liking. Intro programming could be taught with any language and do well. I just feel comfortable with LiveCode and what I (my students) can do with it. My goals are not necessarily to develop top knotch programmers but to show them the joy of programming, the feeling of success and pride, and an appreciation of what a computer can do for you or help you to do. I guess it is to each his/her own.


I agree with much of that. No question if thats your goal (with the caveat again that I don't think all of that is learning modern programming) but in terms of a price discussion and how that affects adoption I am just pointing out the reasons why that adoption has been so low and why the price will not help either
Thank you for the interesting discussions that you have provoked. (politics, religions and languages seem to have the tendency to cause very heated discussions) :)
I thank you as well. You have added some very good points to the discussion and I appreciate the intelligent thoughtful exchange.

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