Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Find out what's going on with LiveCode (the company), product releases, announcements, and events.

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sturgis
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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by sturgis » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:46 pm

If you're concerned about how your current license will be handled, and what further costs there may be you should send a message to support@runrev.com Heather is the greatest and will explain how everything works, though this particular week i'm not sure a super speedy response will happen. They're running on a teensy bet of overload.

As for the argument that "other languages can already do....." Well yeah. Having choices isn't a bad thing. And while assembly will do everything, I really prefer livecode.

With LC I actually enjoy programming. People being different, others might enjoy c# or <insert language here>.. Did I mention that having options is a good thing?

The first time I looked at LC it did NOT click. I was so used to other languages (php, perl, shell scripting etc) My head was just set to expect things to work differently, I tried and tried and didn't see the point. Put it away for a while, came back and suddenly things started to click. Started to have FUN. I now find myself whipping out tools in LC just because I like to. Need an amortization schedule with a nice datagrid output and basic graphs? Spend an hour (I type slow) and get it done.

My only regret is that I didn't have the cash to splurge on the lifetime lc commercial license through kickstarter. For me its not that big a deal since everything I do with lc is for me or provided free to friends who need a tool.

So for me.. well I've looked at java, c, c++, studied enough that i'm sure I _could_ program in those languages, but I wouldn't LIKE it. Whether LC is right for you, can only be decided by you. Nothing can be all things to all people.

My belief is that anything that makes it possible for people to start doing their own creative thing is good. Hypercard opened up lots of doors for lots of people.

Lastly, as others have answered, your current license hasn't changed. You own that version, and the minor point updates to that version. The difference here is that you can still build commercial apps with your current version, and you can develop forever with the community version, and get a license only when you're ready to build for commercial. This way you can take advantage of all the new stuff coming down the pipeline, and only invest when you're to deploy commercially. For the rest of your concerns, I say again. Contact Support and ask questions.

Did I mention I actually LIKE the people that i've interacted with at LC?

doc
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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by doc » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:33 pm

Well, I guess my sarcastic remark ruffled some feathers...
I did not harshly or otherwise reply to anything having to do with the OP's misunderstandings, misgivings or possible lack of knowledge regarding the issue of LiveCode going open source. I let that dog lay, remaining silent for wiser minds to follow.

However, the sarcastic comment that was made (by what appears to be an established LC user) in comparing the usefulness of LiveCode to Objective-C, C# and Java was (in my opinion) deserving of... well... errrmmm... sarcasm in reply.

I'm not quite sure whether the "troll", "witch hunt" or advice regarding "inappropriate posts" are directed toward me or not, but I hope to assure folks that I really meant no great harm. Sarcasm is what it is.

As a Rev/LC user since 2004 and member here at the forums since 2006, I seldom post or interact much at all other than for a few discussions of interest and/or a handful of feeble attempts to help others. I've noticed that at times I do tend to be a bit more edgy and less politically correct in my older age, but that hardly qualifies as a troll I would think.

What does concern me is that a simple sarcastic remark, especially in the context that it was used, would be cause for any kind of mention or discussion about a "code of conduct" or "reporting" someone for something you might happen to disagree with.
Thanks for considering this. Let's keep this place friendly, productive, and welcoming.
Yes, lets do please.

-Doc-

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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by FourthWorld » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:01 pm

doc wrote:However, the sarcastic comment that was made (by what appears to be an established LC user) in comparing the usefulness of LiveCode to Objective-C, C# and Java was (in my opinion) deserving of... well... errrmmm... sarcasm in reply.
It may not have been sarcasm. There are some who've only worked with lower-level languages, and have little understanding of how LiveCode works. We'll be seeing more of them over the coming month - hopefully a LOT more. This and other seemingly challenging questions will come up again and again, and it doesn't mean their high or trolling, simply in need of a little guidance to understand this strange new world called LiveCode.
I'm not quite sure whether the "troll", "witch hunt" or advice regarding "inappropriate posts" are directed toward me or not, but I hope to assure folks that I really meant no great harm.
Doc, I've known you long enough to understand that you're one of the most good-natured people we have here. My comment was for all us - including myself, since I can be prone sometimes to letting loose when the mood strikes.

If we were all in a pub sitting around a table sharing a pitcher this would all be so much easier. But in a text-only community like these forums, it's so easy for even simple things to be misunderstood.

My comment was just to try to help remind us all that we're going to have rather a flood of newcomers, and a good many of them will have some difficulty unlearning their old programming paradigms as they try out LiveCode. If we can err on the side of patience, and try to presume good intentions, it'll reflect well on our community and help these newcomers enjoy their LiveCode experience.
Richard Gaskin
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LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems: http://FourthWorld.com
LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

doc
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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by doc » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:40 pm

It's all good, Richard.
...or as Phil from Duck Dynasty would say: "Happy, Happy, Happy!"

-Doc-

P.S. I suppose that I might not have posted anything sarcastic at all if I had noticed that the two almost back to back negative posts written previously were from different folks named Paul. As with sarcasm, excuses are what they are also. :wink:

macnomad2
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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by macnomad2 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:12 pm

Yes, and my comment is also not aimed at you.
It is true that with more and more people coming to LC, it will change these forums or others created specially for the open source version.
Maybe a little thinking about how to make them lively AND useful could be done ?

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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by marksmithhfx » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:51 pm

I think someone was interested in the benefits of kickstarter. This list (and Kevin's blog post) provide a good start on some of the benefits all of us should start to see in the next 12 months....

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/175 ... code/posts

Cheers,

-- Mark
macOS 10.13.6 High Sierra, Xcode 9.4, LC 9.0.1, iOS 11.4.1
Targets: Mac, iOS

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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by FourthWorld » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:53 pm

macnomad2 wrote:Maybe a little thinking about how to make them lively AND useful could be done ?
I like lively.

Maybe we should have a section titled "Free-for-all", where I could let loose and be as snarky as I like. :)
Richard Gaskin
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LiveCode User Group on Facebook : http://FaceBook.com/groups/LiveCodeUsers/

doc
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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by doc » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:00 am

With LC now going open source for sure, maybe someone at RunRev would consider a very different approach to these support forums. Instead of potentially adding new sections to this already tangled mess, why not cull it back to just 4 or 5 instead?

Why not move the existing messages into a read only archive, so not to use the valuable info, then build a structure something like this (or a relative few more as required):

Desktop:
Mac
Win
Linux

Mobile:
iOS
Android
(Whatever else comes along)

The GREAT benefit of having a smaller number of categories overall, is that folks could much easier browse just the topics for the platforms of interest to them, making it much easier to FIND what they need AND to make it much simpler for the moderators to shuffle things around, keeping the whole thing more organized.

As it is right now, there are way too many opportunities for topics to be posted in categories that simple do not match the content and with the influx of new folks coming (as they will very soon), it's critical to simplify things before it gets completely and totally out of hand.

...seriously, Please!

-Doc-

YogiYang
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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by YogiYang » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:11 am

I am a bit confused and would like to know as to what to being Opensourced and what is going to be commercial?

Can someone please explain this in greater details.

TIA

Yogi Yang
--
Yogi Yang

shaosean
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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by shaosean » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:01 am

All the source code is being open sourced, except for the security features (the password property of a stack)..
If you create an application in the open source version, you must make your code open source as well..
If you want to create a closed source application you will be required to have a commercial license of LiveCode (just as it is now)..

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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by markw » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:08 pm

doc wrote:With LC now going open source for sure, maybe someone at RunRev would consider a very different approach to these support forums.
I have only been reading this forum since partway through the Kickstarter campaign, so don't really deserve any vote on its fate. However, I think this is very important if the LiveCode community is going to grow significantly. I have a lot of experience with developer forums elsewhere (as a user who had several thousand posts on one and as a moderator on another). This kind of forum is very poorly suited to asking and answering development questions. Discussion forums are good for discussion!
doc wrote:The GREAT benefit of having a smaller number of categories overall, is that folks could much easier browse just the topics for the platforms of interest to them, making it much easier to FIND what they need AND to make it much simpler for the moderators to shuffle things around, keeping the whole thing more organized.

As it is right now, there are way too many opportunities for topics to be posted in categories that simple do not match the content and with the influx of new folks coming (as they will very soon), it's critical to simplify things before it gets completely and totally out of hand.
There's already a really good solution to all of these problems in the market and it's completely free. It also has the benefit of having posts related to specific platforms and platform extensions appear in front of other developers for those platforms, expanding the knowledge pool and potentially exposing more developers to LiveCode. In addition, it's:
- SEO optimised so you can find everything easily in your favourite search engine
- Automatically searches for related questions when you type in your proposed question title, preventing most duplicates
- Organised by tags, so it's trivial to move things, or have them in two categories at once
- All users are gradually given more moderation power as they use the system a lot and become trusted for providing good answers.

I am of course talking about StackOverflow (can't post links yet but easy to find) - why not simply direct all technical Q&A there, keeping the forums for less focussed discussion.

If we're feeling like a real overhaul, why not also switch the discussion forum over and become an early adopter of Discourse (this one's an org and on github) - maybe for everything, maybe just for the new platform related stuff rather than end-user stuff at first (it's not exactly mature yet - probably already miles better than phpBB though)?

Just my 2p worth.

Mark

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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by mwieder » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:57 pm

I have only been reading this forum since partway through the Kickstarter campaign, so don't really deserve any vote on its fate.
I question the validity of that statement.

I like the StackOverflow idea, although it's easy for newcomers to get lost there.
This forum was created by RunRev after many user requests, but the RunRev team doesn't hang out here - it's for user-to-user interaction.
The listservs are where the more technical discussions take place, and they're the real value of the user community.

Now I have to go check out Discourse - I agree that phpBB has run its course. I think we're not likely to get the team to change things that much here.
But it does seem necessary to at least add more topics here to allow for greater granularity of posts.
I don't frequent web forums much because I find it hard to navigate through the mess and once I've posted something it just tends to get lost.

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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by monte » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:43 am

I'm all for the StackOverflow idea. How do you encourage people to start asking questions there though? The only thing I can think of is a combination of a few of us to copy questions from here and answer them ourselves and then accept the answer and regularly checking there to make sure all questions are answered promptly.
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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by markw » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:15 pm

I question the validity of that statement.
Fair enough. While I'm sure reasoned arguments are always welcome, it also seems rather rude to turn up in an established community and say "your community discussion infrastructure sucks - change it". :)
This forum was created by RunRev after many user requests, but the RunRev team doesn't hang out here
This will not work in an open source world - I'm pretty sure the RunRev team are aware of this though. Monitoring a forum is quite tough while doing heads down development work, so alternate communication tools is probably a good thing from that perspective too.
The listservs are where the more technical discussions take place, and they're the real value of the user community.
I've been reading daily digests of those too. Seems like an extremely small and highly knowledgeable/experienced subset of the community. The list has a pretty low signal-to-noise ratio to follow for pure technical interest as far as I can see, seems like more of a community interest list with some high quality technical discussion in the last few weeks. The trouble with mailing lists is that it's very hard to find past gems in the archives and regular participation is very binary - you either follow the list and read most of the messages, or you don't read it at all. That scales really poorly to large communities. In the worst case, take something like the Linux kernel community - you pretty much have to be working on the project full time to be able to justify the overhead of following the list, it's an immense barrier to entry for new folks. Luckily there's no need for users of the Linux kernel to follow the mailing list.
I don't frequent web forums much because I find it hard to navigate through the mess and once I've posted something it just tends to get lost.
Exactly why StackOverflow is so much better for the technical Q&A stuff. It does take a little while to get used to navigating the site but after that it's easy to find things. By contrast, with forums it never gets any easier to find stuff.
I'm all for the StackOverflow idea. How do you encourage people to start asking questions there though?
I seriously suggest going cold turkey on the forums. Simply close the technical ones to new posts and put an announcement at the top of each with a link to StackOverflow and some suggested tags to use. The only other thing required is to get the people that currently do the bulk of the answering on board with doing their answering there. The only major downside to that approach is it's unlikely any of the existing community yet have enough reputation on SO to have useful moderation power - that should fairly rapidly fix itself though.

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Re: Help Us Take LiveCode Open Source

Post by FourthWorld » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:00 pm

markw wrote:
I seriously suggest going cold turkey on the forums. Simply close the technical ones to new posts and put an announcement at the top of each with a link to StackOverflow and some suggested tags to use.
StackOverflow is a great addition to the resources available for learning LiveCode, but I would caution against using it exclusively.

Just as RunRev currently hosts both this forum and the use-livecode mailing list, there are benefits to providing multiple venues for such discussion. The user base is broad, with greatly varying habits, interests, and preferences. I'd advocate keeping what we have and adding to it, rather than reducing the variety of venues.

Long live Stack Overflow! Long live the LiveCode Forums! :)
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