Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

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Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby heatherlaine » Fri May 13, 2016 3:42 pm

Dear Forum Members,

I'd like to draw your attention to our latest funding campaign, aimed at increasing LiveCode's reach in the development world to infinity and beyond. Read all about it here:

https://livecode.com/project/infinite-livecode/

Help us to make LiveCode insanely great and pledge!

Warm Regards,

Heather

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Re: Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby steveuba » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:45 am

Errr.....I have a question on when this will be delivered since the campaigns were concluded successfully monies collected (albeit not all)?

The campaign promised LiveCode will deliver this before the end of Summer 2016, but we are way headed into Winter and yet not a single word, or mention of the status of "Infinite LiveCode", anywhere ? Do I smell a rat? and is all well with the mothership?

The least LiveCode should do is at least send out some updates to the contributors to the campaign as to where things stand, instead of bombarding our emails with promo of getting LiveCode or LiveCode Hosting for a curious $499....hmmm, I most definitely smell a dead financial rat :)
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Re: Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby Mikey » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:02 pm

Have you looked at 9, yet?
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Re: Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby FourthWorld » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:40 pm

steveuba wrote:...not a single word, or mention of the status of "Infinite LiveCode", anywhere ?

Like many companies, LiveCode often communicates current work plans through their blog. Here's the post from Oct 17 which includes a description of the rollout process for Infinite LiveCode in v9:
https://livecode.com/whats-new-in-livecode-9-dp-1/

As an open source project, you can also follow progress in the code base in real-time through the Github repository - items marked with "FFI" are for "Foreign Function Interface", the heart of Infinite LiveCode:
https://github.com/livecode/livecode/milestones

Many new and ongoing projects that affect the community are also outlined in team member Dr. Peter Brett's Community Newsletter, published once a week here and also available directly in the IDE in the LiveNet plugin (see Development -> Plugins -> GoLiveNet):
https://livecode.github.io/this-week-in-livecode/

Recent changes to Apple's XCode and some of their APIs has required urgent action from the team to keep current customers building successfully, which has had some impact on the work being done for Infinite LiveCode. But IL remains a top priority, and indeed a majority of the company's engineers are devoted to it.
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Re: Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby [-hh] » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:35 pm

LCB became fascinating me and connected to that the property inspector, how brilliant it is modularised (I speak about the functionality, the layout may be more for the designer side). Also the LCB default 'debugger' is such clear and pointing with unerring accuracy to the offending lines. I'm working nearly only with LC 9 and I am close to switch from a LC fan to a LC hooligan, as Richard already is ;-)

But I must admit that I had to read Peter's post introducing LC 9 twice. The main improvements of LC 9 are the *basis* of the new, the stem and first branches, not yet the nifty leafs or fine apples(!) itself.
For us as simple users there may be not such fancy things visible that we had awaited from LC 9.0 (and may come not before LC 9.2).

Seen from that 'steveuba' is somehow right. Perhaps somebody of the team has the time to tell us roughly the progress of Infinite LiveCode items. Say a listing of item 1 to N with a percentage or a progressbar?
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Re: Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby FourthWorld » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:53 pm

"hooligan" - I like it. Perhaps in the grand tradition of computer we should come up with an acronym for that, in which the "l" is for "LiveCode". :)

I've submitted a request for a more detailed update on Infinite LiveCode. They've had their heads deeply in the code lately so it may not be right away, but hopefully soon.
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Re: Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby heatherlaine » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:35 pm

Folks, a lot of people have been asking this question so I have extracted some interim feedback for you from the team. We are actually on the brink of answering some of these questions more fully via the blog, so stay tuned!

Its true that progress on Infinite LiveCode has been a little slower than we hoped, however we have been making steady progress. Things slowed down a bit as we realized we had to refactor the Infinite LiveCode VM, however that has now been done. We have a dedicated team working on this steadily. There will be a series of blog posts showing progress, the first one going up next week. The tech will appear in DP releases of the 9 series now that the underlying work is in DP 1.

The next thing to appear will be the "do as JavaScript" capability for the HTML5 platform, all things being equal that will be in a DP within the next week or two. That will transform what you're able to do with that platform as you'll be able to communicate fully with JavaScript and communicate in both directions with JavaScript libraries on a web page or server. Next will be the Java interconnectivity (initially aimed at Android). We have that working here now at a basic level, for example you can in just a few lines of code wrap an OS API like the battery monitor. After that the other languages and platforms will appear steadily one by one.

In terms of the promotion, thats just routine, we do those from time to time.

So yes, Infinite LiveCode has taken a bit longer than we hoped but it is making good progress and it is coming soon. Keep an eye on the blog for more.

I hope this helps!

Regards,

Heather
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Re: Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby FourthWorld » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:23 pm

heatherlaine wrote:The next thing to appear will be the "do as JavaScript" capability for the HTML5 platform, all things being equal that will be in a DP within the next week or two. That will transform what you're able to do with that platform as you'll be able to communicate fully with JavaScript and communicate in both directions with JavaScript libraries on a web page or server. Next will be the Java interconnectivity (initially aimed at Android). We have that working here now at a basic level, for example you can in just a few lines of code wrap an OS API like the battery monitor. After that the other languages and platforms will appear steadily one by one.

Both JavaScript and Java will be very exciting additions - thanks for the update.
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Re: Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby heatherlaine » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:13 pm

Dear Forum Members,

Here is an update for you all from Ali Lloyd on the work that has been going on behind the scenes on the Infinite LiveCode project:

https://livecode.com/infinite-livecode-java-progress/

Regards,

Heather
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Re: Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby steveuba » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:07 am

It is quite shocking and distressing LC released "LiveCode for FM" while it had heavily marketed items in the "Feature Exchange" as projects that will be completed before the end of summer, yet here we are in December and the only word on their promise is just an update as to the Java component still under development?

What happened to this comment from LC?;
“We will deliver the project within a three month window on successful completion of the campaign.

If we can fund this now we’ll have this with you in the summer of this year, 2016, as opposed to summer 2017.”


Now LC has begun their money grabbing yet again by launching LC for FM, albeit an incomplete build, and charging for the privilege to use it? This very
"SHAMEFUL"
. Could this be the funds from the
"Feature Exchange"
was diverted to building out this LC for FM?

LC has to come out and properly explain and apologize to people it took money from on the "Feature Exchange" and not just pointing us to a blog post as to half-baked updates on the current work being done on Java components of LCB. It is insulting, especially considering the fact people were being harassed to pay up on their feature exchange pledges, yet now the monies are collected, everyone at LC has all of a sudden gone silent.

There is no justifications for next to no communications on the funded feature exchange projects, yet LC is harassing our email with almost bi-weekly updates on development efforts on
"LC for FM"
. Come to think of it, some of the features being baked into LC for FM are items not properly working in LC, yet it automagically works in LC for FM? with detailed explanations as to how to implement it? ....hhhmmmmmmm.

LC will have to do a lot of work to restore confidence in people it had collected fund from during the Feature Exchange campaigns and provide clearer visibility into items mentioned earlier on in this post, rather than behaving like a new kid with a new toy and not caring the impact to still pending promises which they made to backers.

Good riddance to bad nonsense
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Re: Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby marksmithhfx » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:02 am

HI, just wondering if the 3rd stretch goal has been addressed yet. I think I may be needing it in an upcoming project. Thanks

"Stretch Goal 3 – Native Field Widget –
Write a widget which uses the native field library to produce a drag-drop native field widget for iOS / Android. This will form a template that you can use to wrap any other native platform control."

Mark
Mac OS 10.12.1, Xcode 8.0, LC 8.1.1, iOS 9.3.5
Targets: Mac, iOS
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Re: Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby jameshale » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:48 pm

I too would love to see some progress communicated on this.
Not just stretch goal 3, how about stretch goal 1!
These projects were presented as costed items.
To my naive mind this implies that some sort of work plan had been, well worked out.
This also means that some sort of progress report can be given.
Say;
Goal 1 - 70%, target completion 3/17
Goal 2 - 40%, target completion 5/17
Goal 3 - 30%, target completion 7/17

I have been informed that providing a progress report will take the team away from the work.
I am sorry, but that really is B.S.
I mean the team is managed aren't they? It does,not consist of a group of independent developers.
C'mon Mark, is it going to take you away from you coding too much to provide even the little above'?
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Re: Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby FourthWorld » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:20 pm

jameshale wrote:I have been informed that providing a progress report will take the team away from the work.
I am sorry, but that really is B.S.

That communication was from me, and I included far more detail than that.

Calling my volunteer work of discussing your questions with the team and conveying their reply to you "B.S." is uniquely unmotivating.

And to be clear, it's also reflective of why the team (and now myself) have become increasingly reluctant to discuss work-in-progress before it becomes work-delivered. As we see here, and as I'd outlined in my email to you, no matter how much detail is provided, the information conveyed is often only half-remembered, and in the loss of relevant details expectations often become unmeetable.

For the benefit of other readers here I'll copy the relevant portion of what I learned from Peter Brett when I raised James' question with him in my Community meeting last Thursday morning:

Much of LC Builder's support for C interfaces, such as one would use in macOS, Linux, and iOS are in pretty good shape. It would be useful to know what areas you've had difficulty with on those platforms so I can get into more specifics with him next time.

Android, however, being Java-based, is a very different matter. That will require a bit of refactoring some of the LCB internals and the good news is that it dovetails nicely with work needed to deliver the 64-bit-compatible LC engine for Windows as well.

However, that Win-64 work is dependent on updating their tool chain, and that requires revision to their build system to migrate from the VMs they've been usings to physical machines for those portions of the automated build system.

Peter's working on the build system now, and when that's done they'll be able to get back to the factoring work for Win-64, which will in turn enable them to get back to the Java interfaces for LC Builder.

All that seems like quite a chain of tasks, and it is. But the upside here is that all of it aimed for v9. Don't expect the Win-64 or Java LCB interfaces in the next v9 DP coming up next week or the week after, but hopefully not much father down the road than that.

As a side note, if you're running Windows Peter tells me some of these changes will also include updates to their Skia engine, which may bring at least a modest performance improvement for rendering tasks on most platforms, and may be quite an improvement in more recent versions of Windows.

While the team is doing their work, there's one way we can help: use v9 as much as possible in your daily work.

When you see older bugs and enhancement requests fixed, mark them so if they haven't been already.

And when you see new issues, please report them with a recipe so they can work on them ASAP.

I've been using v9 daily and am quite happy with it. I hope your experience goes as smoothly.

Keep me posted if I can be of further help. My current schedule has required my volunteer activities with the LiveCode and Ubuntu projects to take a bit of a back seat, but as time permits I'm happy to help where I can.


That closing invitation is open to everyone. As with any open source project, it's helpful to have someone in a role that helps facilitate communications between the core dev team and community contributors. That's the role I volunteer for as Community Laiason.

Please feel free to send me questions and suggestions relating to how the efforts of the core team and community contributors can work together for the optimal benefit of the project.

As a volunteer I can't guarantee I'll be able to reply immediately, but I will include any earnest questions in my Community meetings with the team and do my best to convey meaningful information that helps empower us all to help move the LiveCode platform forward.

More specifically here, with the question of LC Builder and its' Foreign Function Interface (aka "Infinite LiveCode") it is useful to know what you need to do that you can't do now. There may be ways to prioritize implementation tasks to support your needs. The Android challenge is broad as described above, and also in progress, but if you have needs for working with C-based APIs that are problematic let's discuss specifics and see what we can do to guide the team's efforts to move your work forward.
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Re: Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby jameshale » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:51 pm

I am sorry if my post upset you Richard.
I was actually referring to my reply from Heather (which prompted my post to you).
My post from Heather was in reply to a post I had sent to Kevin.

I am simply requesting something along the lines,of the three line example I gave.
I honestly cannot see how that is too much to ask.
Three presumably well costed goals that were presented and funded.
I do not know the specifics (perhaps that is part of the problem) as we were only told the end point and asked to fund them.
Maybe goal 1 required 10 steps and the team got stuck on step 4 for longer than planned. It happens.
We don't know.
I presume someone does.

We have seen the FM product get released and now with the push for the business upgrades we will supposedly see (only appeared in a webinar thus far) a remote debugger and script profiler. All great things and presumably planned, costed and developed separately from the infinite LC project.
I say presumably as they were all surprises to many, like myself, who were waiting on infinite livecode.

As a backer in a core foundation,two stretch goal, $55,000 product one surely has a right to be told of the progress in terms of those stages, especially since all were to be delivered by now. (I didn't contribute to the extra 15,000 that was to fund the third goal, although too was fully funded, total now $70,000)

My post to this forum topic was in response to a previous poster. It seemed like I was not the only one wondering what had happened.
Getting told by Heather that the team were too busy to report, well, she is in a support/PR role and I understood where she was coming from. Getting the same line from you, well that wasn't so understandable. I have been in this industry over 20 years. It is simply not an excusable reason.
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Re: Feature Exchange: Infinite LiveCode

Postby FourthWorld » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:33 am

You asked me for a status update and I delivered one. My update includes an explanation as to why it doesn't fit into the tidy three-line format you prefer, along with specific recommendations and a question which can allow us to help move things along, yet you remain unsatisfied.

It seems there's much more I can do for you.
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