Linux installer DEB

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MaxV
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Linux installer DEB

Post by MaxV » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:56 pm

HI,
I just created the livecode 7 installer DEB package for 64 bit. You can download from http://www.maxvessi.net/livecode/linux/index.php
It will install automatically also all needed libraries.
Max
Livecode Wiki: http://livecode.wikia.com
My blog: http://livecodeitalia.blogspot.it
To post code use this: http://tinyurl.com/ogp6d5w

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Re: Linux installer DEB

Post by MaxV » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:04 pm

Added also the RPM package (in 40 minutes will uploaded on the website). :P
Livecode Wiki: http://livecode.wikia.com
My blog: http://livecodeitalia.blogspot.it
To post code use this: http://tinyurl.com/ogp6d5w

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Re: Linux installer DEB

Post by FourthWorld » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:28 pm

Great work, Max. Thanks for that.

If that's a shell script, I wonder if it may be incorporated into the LC team's build process, so they'd produce a .deb file for each version.

Is it something that might be integratable like that?
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Re: Linux installer DEB

Post by MaxV » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:04 am

Creating DEB packages is very easy, a DEB package is just a ZIP archive containing all files needed to be copied.
So you can download, uncompress in a livecode7 directory and modify it.
The command to create a package is just:

Code: Select all

dpkg-deb -b livecode7
where the last argument is the directory name containing all.
Read the config file in my DEBIAN folder to see how to add and remove required libraries.
Livecode Wiki: http://livecode.wikia.com
My blog: http://livecodeitalia.blogspot.it
To post code use this: http://tinyurl.com/ogp6d5w

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Re: Linux installer DEB

Post by richmond62 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:46 am

That really rocks.

Does that mean that we can merrily start giving out DEB installer packages of the GPL version of Livecode?

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Re: Linux installer DEB

Post by MaxV » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:37 am

Yes, I don't see any problem.
Livecode Wiki: http://livecode.wikia.com
My blog: http://livecodeitalia.blogspot.it
To post code use this: http://tinyurl.com/ogp6d5w

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Re: Linux installer DEB

Post by richmond62 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:13 pm

you can download, uncompress in a livecode7 directory and modify it
Aaaaah: so, at last, for Linux at least, we can start distributing "hacked" versions
of Livecode like this:

1. Interface colours modded.

2. scriptEditor settings modded.

3. and so on.

This will be extremely useful if one wants to deploy a version of Livecode across multiple desktops
running Linux where one wants a uniform look,feel and settings arrangement.

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Re: Linux installer DEB

Post by FourthWorld » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:43 pm

I believe it would be in the best interest of everyone if any modified distribution of LiveCode be very clearly marked as such.
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Re: Linux installer DEB

Post by richmond62 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:36 am

Of course it would be sensible to mark modified versions of Livecode as such; and
I suspect that the GPL requires that.

One of the main points about Open Source software is the ability to modify
stuff and then hand it on (with the source code): pace Richard Stallman.

What I don't know is whether it is alright to modify the LC splash screen.

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Re: Linux installer DEB

Post by FourthWorld » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:54 pm

richmond62 wrote:Of course it would be sensible to mark modified versions of Livecode as such; and
I suspect that the GPL requires that.
The GPL expresses no opinion about trademarks, but many open source projects maintain their trademarks vigorously so users can confidently identify the vetted original work.

In a good case, a modified version of an app will be merely different from the original, delivering a user experience different from what the original author intended. In those cases avoiding the trademark helps users know what they're getting, so they can make an informed choice about what they're downloading.

In the worst case a modified version of an app may contain malware, damaging the user's computer and the reputation of the original author.

Since any author of a work distributed under most FOSS licenses has no control over derivative works the stakes are potentially quite high. To mitigate risks we see a growing interest in FOSS projects carefully managing their trademarks to help users better understand what they're downloading.

In the case of Ubuntu, for example, their Intellectual Property Policy supports the GPL in encouraging the production of derivative works, but requires that all occurrences of the trademark "Ubuntu" be removed from all sources so that a derivative work cannot be confused with the original ISO images delivered by Canonical.
One of the main points about Open Source software is the ability to modify
stuff and then hand it on (with the source code): pace Richard Stallman.

What I don't know is whether it is alright to modify the LC splash screen.
AFAIK LiveCode hasn't yet published an Intellectual Property Policy outlining acceptable use of their trademark, but I've helped point them to similar policies in use on other projects and I believe their counsel is reviewing those to draft one that's a good fit for their needs.

In the meantime, I think an About box or splash screen should make two things clear:
1. The copyright owner of the original work is LiveCode Ltd.
2. The derivative work is not LiveCode per se, as delivered by LiveCode Ltd., and should be clearly named something else.
Richard Gaskin
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Re: Linux installer DEB

Post by richmond62 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:45 pm

is not LiveCode per se
Well here we come up against a real problem: when is Livecode still Livecode, and when is it not Livecode.

1. If I deliver a version of Livecode where all the stacks in the IDE are black rather than grey, but it differs in no other
way whatsoever I would say that is still Livecode.
JOKESPLASH.png
2. If I strap a whole new GUI on Livecode then it's probably "Richmond's Thing" with the Livecode engine bubbling away underneath.

To my mind, at least, those are fairly clear cases. But where is one to draw a boundary?
Of course the easiest way to go would be to state that as soon as there is any modification whatsoever, however insignificant, then that is not Livecode qua Livecode,
but that seems over simplistic.

So, I suspect, there does seem to have to be some sort of ruling in this respect and a document clearly explaining "when an elephant is still an elephant rather than a mastadon."
Last edited by richmond62 on Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Linux installer DEB

Post by FourthWorld » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:05 pm

richmond62 wrote:
is not LiveCode per se
Well here we come up against a real problem: when is Livecode still Livecode, and when is it not Livecode.

1. If I deliver a version of Livecode where all the stacks in the IDE are black rather than grey, but in differs in no other
way whatsoever I would say that is still Livecode.
...
So, I suspect, there does seem to have to be some sort of ruling in this respect and a document clearly explaining "when and elephant is still an elephant rather than a mastadon."
Indeed, and Kevin is working with counsel to produce one. In the meantime, maybe all we need to keep in mind is that the thing that is LiveCode is the downloadable image made available on LiveCode Ltd's servers. Anything with a different checksum is not the software they delivered, and for security reasons, and possible branding reasons, should not be portrayed as being LiveCode.

In the first example you provided above, please keep in mind that any change will alter the checksum, so a user cannot validate the download. I trust you wouldn't install malware, but there may be people who don't know your good nature, and who are looking for the official LiveCode release. So even with a cosmetic change you feel may be minor, it can't be verified as the LiveCode that LiveCode Ltd shipped.

I can't speak for LiveCode Ltd., but as a user I appreciate forks that identify themselves clearly. This allows me to readily understand that I'm dealing with a fork and not the user experience the original author delivered. A distinctive name also helps me find the fork when the fork is exactly what I want. Some people prefer MariaDB over MySQL, or LibreOffice over OpenOffice. With those forks using clearly different names, everyone looking for either the original or the derivative knows exactly what they're getting.
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Re: Linux installer DEB

Post by richmond62 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:15 pm

This is a very interesting discussion, although for me it is 100% academic as I have no intention of
releasing a forked version of Livecode into "the wild". I do intend only to assemble a DEB packega
of a version of Livecode with all my preferences preset to what I want for teaching purposes so that
I can deploy it across all my in-house machines in my EFL/programming school to save the considerable
time I spend at present tweaking every LC install post installation.

When the FOSS version of Livecode was first released there was a lot of "song and dance" about forking
which resulted in nothing at all, probably because all modifications to the mother-ship can be so easily
applied very quickly at start up with a autorun stack.

Whichever way one slices one's potatoes it does behove Livecode to sort out the legality of this and
how various things can be protected; not least to limit Livecode's legal liability from the damage that
could be dome from someone releasing a "poisonous" version of Livecode that could wreak havoc with
end-user's machines.

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Re: Linux installer DEB

Post by FourthWorld » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:06 pm

richmond62 wrote:When the FOSS version of Livecode was first released there was a lot of "song and dance" about forking
which resulted in nothing at all, probably because all modifications to the mother-ship can be so easily
applied very quickly at start up with a autorun stack.
Modding the IDE through plugins is arguably the most efficient method given the rapid rate of change in the IDE. Community and core team alike put in tremendous time fixing and enhancing it, so while a fork might be interesting in some cases it's also a very expensive option.

One area where a forked LC might be worth the effort is if someone were willing to make a truly different IDE, without dependencies on the LC IDE. That would allow completely separate management of its code base, and open up nearly infinite possibilities.

It is, however, quite a lot of work to make an IDE that provides a GUI front-end to even a substantial subset of LC's capabilities. The maintainers of the MC IDE stopped work on that one long ago for that reason, putting their energies instead into plugin-based mods to the LC IDE.

But the option is there if one is sufficiently ambitious. :)
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Re: Linux installer DEB

Post by richmond62 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:14 pm

Kevin is working with counsel to produce one
Well, as everybody has had at least 4 years to play "fast and loose" with the FOSS version of Livecode
it might be about time.

This should have been done before a FOSS version was produced.

What amazes me is that someone hasn't ripped the code off completely already.

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