revweb support? HTML5 instead?

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emdalton
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revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by emdalton » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:52 pm

The "Web" deployment option seems to have gone from "well-kept secret" to "we disavow any knowledge of such a product." Where did the sample revlets go? Why isn't there an area of the forum dedicated to this deployment method, as there is for all the other platforms (including Linux desktop)? Is there a timeline for intended feature parity for the plugin (which seems to be at 4.0.x)? And perhaps most significantly... is there any serious consideration being given to outputting HTML5 instead?

One of my tasks is to develop rich content for online courses in higher education. I'd like to be able to use Livecode. But I know requiring students to download and install a plugin is just asking for trouble, especially one not even listed on the Mozilla website. Additionally, the lack of visible support for the Web deployment doesn't make me feel great about investing a lot of time and energy in this technology.

When RunRev first started talking about a web plugin, I argued for a Java output method instead (or a plugin built in Java, whichever). I heard rumors that this was being considered, but never more than rumors. People are still a lot more likely to have the Java plugin already installed in their browsers than they are to have or want to install a plugin few have heard of, but HTML5 has probably made Java redundant for revlet purposes.

So how about it? Is this a dead issue? Should I just program my interactive elements in javascript and be done with it? (Or *shudder* Flash?) Or does RunRev still plan to support web deployment?
Elizabeth

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Re: revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by Klaus » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:49 pm

Hi Elisabeth,

to be honest, I would not rely on a tool (a plug in, which is so 90s anyway :D ),
that has not been updated for more than two years!

Since LiveCode can load other stacks via internet with a ONE-liner, can't you
use a small standalone, that will load everything (stacks, media etc...) from some server?

Like the "GoRevNet" LiveCode Plugin from Richard Gaskin:
Menu -> Development -> Plugins -> GoRevNet

That could be a great and easy alternative to the (for me very hard to get) "everything inside a browser" thing 8)


Best

Klaus

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Re: revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by FourthWorld » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:34 pm

I can't speak for RunRev's plans for RevWeb; never needed it myself, so it's the only engine they make that I don't use.

I was going to suggest the possibility of a sort of "custom browser", a slender standalone that downloads stacks over HTTP - but Klaus beat me to it. I've found that approach very useful myself, providing all of the easy deployment benefits of the Web without the confines of the browser.

For more on that sort of thing this article may be of interest - it's quite old, but with the advent of the iOS AppStore and other examples of net-savvy apps it's only become more relevant over the years:

Beyond the Browser: Rediscovering the Role of the Desktop in a Net-centric World
http://www.fourthworld.com/embassy/arti ... tapps.html

Distance learning is a keen interest of mine; some of the bigger projects I've worked on over the years have been CBTs, LMSs, and such. I used to follow some of the more popular interoperability standards for online learning, like the AICC specs and SCORM, and if adopting those sorts of standards are of interest I may be able to help.

HTML/JavaScript is another great option, if only for the ubiquity it provides. I find crafting interactive materials in LiveCode far more productive, but it's hard to beat HTML/JS for simple deployment. JavaScript is a funky language, and the range of tools for the sort of stuff I make is so sparse I've had to begin making my own, but CSS is wonderful to work with and almost makes up for JS's funkiness. :)

Do you use Moodle or other common LMS, or have your own?

And you mentioned Linux - do you have Linux users in your learner audience?
Richard Gaskin
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Re: revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by emdalton » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:48 pm

We're using Moodle.We probably don't have many Linux users among our students-- I just mentioned that as an example of a deployment option that is better supported than the Web, though I would be willing to bet there are far more web users than linux users. :?

I don't think writing our own browser app is appropriate. We'd then have to make sure we kept the app up to date with web tech changes, including security fixes. An activity app might be possible, but then we have to get into supporting it.

What I really wish we could have is a working means of deploying to the Web, preferably along with some tools to create SCORM-compliant packages. I'd like to be working on implementing simple learning simulations and other activities on top of a platform like that, not trying to build the platform itself!
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Re: revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by emdalton » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:55 pm

I got an alert that there was an update to this thread, so I was disappointed to find it was only spam (reported). But in any case, I've asked if one of the stretch goals of the Kickstarter effort to create an open source version of LiveCode could support HTML5 as an output platform, and was told "we'd like to do that." Maybe it would help if others expressed interest as well?
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Re: revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by shaosean » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:08 am

You could always write your own Xcode to HTML5 parser..

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Re: revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by emdalton » Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:22 am

shaosean wrote:You could always write your own Xcode to HTML5 parser..
Or I could just use Construct 2, and promote that to the faculty at my college instead of LiveCode.

Not to be snarky, but I've already got a day job as an instructional designer, an evening job teaching stats, and a doctorate in educational research that I'm trying to finish. I need tools that will help me with these tasks. I don't need another major project I have to complete before I can get my existing work done. I happen to really like the LiveCode interface and language, and I'd like to be able to use it to meet my needs, but my needs include support for web delivery, and that just doesn't seem to be a priority in the LiveCode roadmap. :(
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Re: revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by shaosean » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:01 am

I don't think they have a roadmap ;-)

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Re: revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by bobcoffee » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:58 am

I'm hoping that someone will be able to clarify a few things about web deployment. I have only been experimenting with LiveCode for the last year on and off, mostly off, but I just assumed that I would be able to deploy to the web... somehow. I mean, in File > Standalone Application Settings > There is a Build for Web tab, right? Is it even possible to deploy to a web page? and has anyone run an app like a flash game from a website?

Does anyone have any experience deploying to the web and does anyone know the work flow? This is a real bummer if you can't deploy to a webpage as it seems to be the case after reading some of the other posts. Any insight into deploying to the web or is LiveCode just not up to it?

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Re: revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by shaosean » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:59 am

I think Rev has given up on the web-plugin as it has not been updated for quite some time (unless i missed a posting along the way)..

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Re: revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by emdalton » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:24 pm

The web plugin has been officially discontinued, and the web as an output platform is no longer offered.

At this point, either compiling to HTML5 or getting the LiveCode server to render HTML5 seem like the best options. Does anyone know which would be easier, from a technical perspective?
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Re: revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by FourthWorld » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:46 pm

emdalton wrote:At this point, either compiling to HTML5 or getting the LiveCode server to render HTML5 seem like the best options. Does anyone know which would be easier, from a technical perspective?
Given the flexibility of the language, I would guess that latter would be less costly to attempt than pure translation. That said, neither would be trivial, so it may be some time before we see a solution from RunRev and/or the community on this.

In the meantime, it's not hard to write ad hoc translators for specific apps, and JavaScript isn't hard to learn, so we have plenty of options at our disposal.
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Re: revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by emdalton » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:26 pm

I think the refactoring being done for the open source initiative will make this somewhat easier, so hopefully it will be worth looking at again this fall. I've told the RunRev folks that I'd be happy to run a Kickstarter campaign to fund HTML5 support, and there has been some interest. We'll see what happens over the summer.
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Re: revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by snowfun » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:26 pm

As someone who also wants to use LC for the development of online content (University of Edinburgh, PG programmes) I'd be keen to hear about progress...
Tim

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Re: revweb support? HTML5 instead?

Post by DanShafer » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:42 am

I had to move away from using LiveCode (which was then called RunRev) despite my real passion for the language several years ago when it became clear my projects were all headed for Web deployment. Essentially, I've been writing Web apps using several different tools, technologies and platforms in those intervening years. When LC went OpenSource, I came back for a re-examination. You can't imagine my disappointment to find that the issue of Web deployment had essentially gone unaddressed for those years. I mean, really? The Web is the biggest deployment opportunity by far but LiveCode doesn't even have a glimmer of a way of addressing it yet?

I thought sure that at least the LCServer platform would be able to serve up LC stacks over the Web so that it might mean I'd have to install and manage an instance of the server or pay On-Rev $250/yr. to host my LC stacks for Web delivery. But it appears that is also not possible. IOW, I can't take a nice, graphically designed LC Stack and simply slap it up on On-Rev or LCServer and allow users with Web browsers to access and run the code and the UI.

So it appears I still can't use my all-time favorite development tool & platform for the real-world work I get paid to do. That's a shame but it is what it is. I'm only about 25% as productive in any other tool as I am in LC when designing and building apps. And nothing else is nearly as much fun.

Oh, well. Back to the JavaScript world I go. I'll miss you! Sniff

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